Inside The Sober Method: From Root Cause To Lasting Change - Massimo

What if addiction isn’t a willpower problem but an identity problem? We sit down with Massimo—addiction recovery advocate, author of Flavors of Confidence, and creator of the Sober Method—to unpack why abstinence alone so often collapses and how confidence, structure, and self‑inquiry build a sober life that lasts. Instead of treating the brain like a black box, Massimo shows how to work with it like a system you can observe, adjust, and validate through real‑world feedback.

We dive into the root causes that quietly shape addictive patterns, often early wounds that seed shame and avoidance. Massimo explains how the S.O.B.E.R. loop transforms recovery into an iterative practice: observe, analyze behavior, execute small experiments, and restore by making amends with clear boundaries. We explore why confidence—not bravado, but an inner steadiness—reduces the “need” for chemical courage, and how journaling creates measurement you can trust when memory and shame distort the story. You’ll hear how relapse often begins mentally and emotionally on our devices, where comparison drains self‑trust and attention splinters, and what it takes to set structural boundaries that protect focus and rebuild self‑belief.

Massimo also shares a powerful moment of choosing sobriety through profound grief, turning loss into legacy by taking the Sober Method from a personal practice to a public framework. Along the way, we map practical tactics: naming the core fear (like abandonment), replacing avoidance with deliberate action, and designing relationships that fit the life you’re building. If you’ve ever wondered why removing the substance wasn’t enough—or how to move from white‑knuckling to genuine change—this conversation offers a clear path forward grounded in identity, measurement, and daily structure.

Listen now, share this episode with someone who needs it, and subscribe for more deep dives on human change. If it helped, leave a review and tell us: what one behavior will you re‑engineer this week?

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Chapters

• 0:00 Rethinking Willpower And Identity
• 0:31 Meet Massimo And His Journey
• 1:22 The Sober Method’s Core Idea
• 3:03 Root Causes And Childhood Wounds
• 5:05 Why Abstinence Alone Fails
• 7:44 Confidence As A Recovery Engine
• 10:55 Linking Self‑Belief To Behavior
• 13:26 Hidden Sabotage And Device Addiction
• 17:00 Building S.O.B.E.R.: OBE And Restore
• 20:30 Measurement, Journaling, And Iteration
• 23:10 Grief, Legacy, And Choosing Sobriety
• 26:30 Naming The Fear: Abandonment
• 29:00 Daily Structure And Lasting Change
• 30:05 Where To Find Sober Method
• 31:10 Closing Reflections On Recovery

Transcript

SPEAKER_00: 0:06

Is often talked about as a lack of willpower. But what if it's actually a lack of identity, confidence, and the inner structure? And what if the sobriety is not just about becoming someone new, but reclaiming who you already are? That's where tonight's conversation begins, dear listeners. So hey, dear listeners, welcome back to another powerful episode of Mind Meets Machine, where we explore the intersection of inner systems, behavior, and the human transformation. And this show is all about understanding what really drives change beneath the surface. And for that, we have a very lovely guest. Please welcome Masimuragoti. Welcome to the show.

SPEAKER_01: 0:55

Hey, thank you so much, Avi. It is so nice to be back here with you again. Always enjoy our conversations. We go in different paths every time that we talk, but I think that we always bring out something very enlightening for your listeners. So I'm I'm excited to be back.

SPEAKER_00: 1:11

Amazing, amazing. It's really great to again connect with you and um on this podcast, definitely. But dear listeners, before we delve deep into our discussion today, I'll quickly love to introduce you with Massimo. So Massimo is the addiction recovery advocate, the author of Flavors of Confidence, and creator of Sober Method, which is S O B E R, Sober Method. It's a holistic framework that is designed to help people not only achieve the sobriety but sustain it through confidence, structure, and the self-awareness. So his journey through addiction, bipolar disorder, loss, and rebuilding has shaped a deeply human and practical approach to the recovery. And uh in this episode, we will explore the confidence, soberity, identity, and what actually helps people stay sober long term. So, White With, let's just try it. Welcome to the show again.

SPEAKER_01: 2:12

Yes, absolutely. Thanks again. Yeah, I tell you, the the thing that is so incredible about the sober method, just right out of the gate for everybody, is the fact that you're looking at your mind as an actual thing that you can adjust and tinker with it, fix it, and make these small incremental changes that you can see and that you can that you can actually measure, which is something that is missing in in most of uh the systems that are out there. You know, we don't have an opportunity to really say, oh, this works.

SPEAKER_00: 2:52

Okay, definitely. I totally agree with you. And like uh before we start, I mean like you have spoken before also that, so you want to start with that family but kind of uh important place. That when someone first comes to you who are struggling with the addiction, then what do you sense that they are they have usually lost before they ever lost control of the substances?

SPEAKER_01: 3:18

There is almost always an underlying singular event, is what I I find. I would say greater than 90% of the time I'm able to work with somebody and find one thing that happened to them generally in childhood that set their path on an inability to be confident with who they are and present that to the world. And so they live in shame of who they are and what they could become, and that fear keeps them grounded from the greatness that we all have within us.

SPEAKER_00: 3:58

True, true. I mean, obviously, that loss of self often it runs deeper than the addiction itself, definitely. So and also, yeah, yeah, please, please.

SPEAKER_01: 4:11

I was gonna say that what's really interesting is that even after you correct the addiction, the only thing that has kept me, I'm coming up on 10 years in uh 40 days, so it's it's pretty awesome for me at the moment. But when you put the addiction behind you, you still have to work on those fundamental things that led you to addiction in the first place. Because if you don't do that, you're always gonna slide back in.

SPEAKER_00: 4:40

Exactly. Exactly, exactly. And like when we're talking about this, also I believe this should be a kind of common misconception. So, like uh one of the biggest misconceptions is like about celebrities that it's it's just uh about stopping the behavior, like so from your experience, uh what do you think? I mean, why does focusing only on uh abstinence fail so many people?

SPEAKER_01: 5:10

It's not looking at the root cause. I mean, this goes back to just common root cause analysis. And for for those of you obviously who don't know, and I have spoken before, so he knows this. But for the audience, this began as looking at my brain as something that was a machine, yeah, and looking at it to tinker. And so the sober method works in continuous improvement like the deming cycle does in manufacturing or PDCA, plan do check act. You know, if you if anybody's familiar with these types of improvements in manufacturing or engineering, then sober is going to be a logical thing for you to use. Yeah. And so back to your question here is the reason that abstinence doesn't work is because all you've done is you pulled one thing out of the equation, but the machine's still running looking for something to fill that cog you just pulled out. So the addiction is probably some lubricant that is allowing you to function in some semblance of what society deems as normal. And and be and so you utilize the substance, drinking generally is the most common, of course. You're utilizing this in order to behave in such a way that you feel comfortable in society to fit in. And and so if you just do abstinence, well, guess what? You still don't fit in because you don't understand why you need that thing. That's why you really have to dig into yourself and figure out why do I need this? Why is it necessary for me to drink in order to go up and give that speech, or in order to talk to my boss, or in order to go to my in-laws, you know, whatever the reason is, why do I need this? And these addictions usually start gradually, they're not all at once. You probably notice, oh, that worked for this. I wonder if I took a drink before doing this, if that would work too. And then our brains are lazy. Humans, we are all inherently lazy, and so we go, we go for the easiest thing. Rather than do the hard work and figure out why I need the alcohol, we just go ahead and say, Oh, it worked for this, it'll work for this, right? You know, you just you just apply all.

SPEAKER_00: 7:32

Very true, very, very true. Yeah. And obviously, it reframes sobriety as a kind of lifestyle and identity shift, but not just a kind of rule set. So definitely, yeah. Amazing. So if you talk about the root causes and maybe the deeper patterns also, like you talked about the confidence being the central to recovery. So, how does that lack of confidence or maybe the self-trust quietly drive the addictive patterns?

SPEAKER_01: 8:01

What I have found, and of course, this all started with me, was if I didn't have that ability to walk into a room and not care what anybody thought about me at all, then I wasn't confident. Confidence is the most impossible thing to define. I mean, if you look it up in the dictionary, the di the definition is so nebulous that nobody can really tell you what confidence is. But one thing's certain, you know it when you see it, right? You know when you see someone who's who's confident. Yeah, you immediately recognize it. And so what is that function? And so I started studying people that I you know I knew were confident. What were they exhibiting? And there this commonality was they can move within their own skin, and it doesn't matter, nothing will tip them off their off that core. And so then I started looking at myself and saying, when do I feel most of myself? You know, when am I most of me? And then I would present into like a group of people and say, okay, what's tilting me off center? And as I walked through that process, I was able to say, okay, I have a fear of X, Y, Z, you know, what whatever it was. And then I would work to eliminate that fear, but at the same time working to eliminate it, I would dig within myself and say, when did I first feel that way? And so that's what I asked everyone to do as they go through the sober method, is that you're actually going to try to find out when that particular fear first entered your life. And that's a lot of work. I I mean, like this process is not easy, but it is permanent. I I I can say that.

SPEAKER_00: 10:15

Very true. Yeah, yeah. I mean, you know that that link between the self-belief and the behavior, uh is something that um many recovery models overlook. What's your take on this?

SPEAKER_01: 10:32

Uh yeah, I I think a lot of the recovery models out there are one, they're focused on the abstinence. It's it's like you walk into the traditional A, and you're not gonna do it anymore. And that's not realistic. I mean, sober is framed in such a way as like, okay, we know you need to get away from this, but also we have to recognize that you gotta fix something in order to pull something away. And so there has to be some sort of tapering and overall view of yourself to understand how you're gonna take that thing away. So I I I would like most people to stop right away, but I also am realistic that that's not feasible for a lot of people, and so that uh that's one of the things that I I think is a is a failing. And I apologize, I lost my train of thought in making that point. What was your original question?

SPEAKER_00: 11:36

No, no, I'm I'm saying like because what happens is like that self-belief and the behavior, which that that linking between is uh something people or the most of the models overlook. So what do you think?

SPEAKER_01: 11:50

Yes, yeah, yes, absolutely they do. Because the that link is actually the addiction itself, like believing in yourself and having that confidence is never really rebuilt in any other system. The ones that you know are just focused on the substance itself. There's no hard inner work that is done. It comes about naturally. And those that I met when I went to AAA on a regular basis that had found success had found a way to figure the things out that are in the sober method. They had searched within themselves, they had figured out what was wrong, they had corrected those things, and then they had set themselves right. Those were the people that were the longtime like five, 10, 20 year people. Yeah. Those that were in this constant state of I've been sober for 90 days, and then I drink for a few, and then I come back, and then I like that constant cycle were those that didn't understand there was something deeper at work.

SPEAKER_00: 13:02

Very very true, very, very true. And and and like um, you know, like in everyday life, um how do you see people sabotage their sobriety without realizing it? I mean, not through the substances, but through the mindset, relationships, or the habits.

SPEAKER_01: 13:21

I mean, right now, addiction is so prevalent in devices, and uh I'm I'm very close. My third book will come out this year, and it's about device addiction. And so this is a topic that is just so incredibly powerful. We live in a world where we have no attention span anymore. And anyone who has made it this far into this podcast, I applaud you because that means you have an immense amount of focus. You it's true, and it's sad, but the the thing is is that we're all leaning into these addictions because we are not, I don't think many of us are okay with ourselves, or we don't feel like we're I I guess the best word would be confident. We don't feel confident with who we are, and we look at these social media platforms and we're comparing ourselves to everybody, and we're constantly in this view that the world is much better for everyone else except myself. So as you're pulling and so viewing that all the time, you're pulling down your confidence level, you're pulling down your ability to believe that you can do better for yourself. That and and it isn't even real. I mean, most of the things that you see, I mean, ask anyone that you don't know personally. Well, actually, a better way to tell this is that look at the social media of somebody you know versus what they're real like, you know, and it's like it's not the same. Um, and so these social media platforms, these devices, these games, they're all designed to draw you in and to keep you from doing the hard work on yourself.

SPEAKER_00: 15:11

Yeah. Correct. I mean, it shows like how relapse often starts emotionally and mentally also, long before it becomes physical.

SPEAKER_01: 15:22

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah, and there are always there's always those telltale signs. You know, somebody who may have been an addict have one addiction in the past but didn't do the hard work will lean into another addiction that is maybe not physical, but you know, maybe I was a drunk, but now I can't put my phone down, or now I can't do anything but go home immediately and play eight hours of video games before I pass out, you know. Uh so you're right. There are telltale signs of of these things, and the cries for help are visible to those around you. Uh anyone who's struggling with sobriety, if your family and your friends are aware, they're there to help you through that because they're gonna notice those signs that great, you're no longer drinking, and we can finally see you. Oh, wait a second. Where do you go? There he is, and we're playing video games. So you you know, like I don't know, lovely.

SPEAKER_00: 16:20

Yeah. And also to focus on the sober method, like um, I want to give uh I mean one to want to bring that thing like you created the sober method for a reason, right? So if you can walk us through that core idea behind it, like why this framework works where others don't. I believe people would love to know, and uh it'll definitely bring them value in their life.

SPEAKER_01: 16:48

Well, absolutely. I mean, again, uh not many people are probably as nutty as I am in the fact that they thought that they could just go out and make something, but yeah, the genesis of this was I was sober, I had been sober for two years. Okay, and I just started looking around to thinking, is this it? I mean, I go to these meetings, I talk about things that I used to do, but what am I getting? How am I getting any better? I'm friends with a bunch of people who still struggling. I haven't made any new friends, and so it was just a very depressing type of situation. You know, I didn't feel like there was any hope for me. I mean, I was sober and I was so happy about that, but I also didn't feel like there was any growth in my life, right? Yeah, and so that's was the genesis. I'm like, there's gotta be a better way.

SPEAKER_00: 17:46

Yes, yes, definitely.

SPEAKER_01: 17:50

And so then I sat back and I thought, okay, how would you improve yourself? How would you go about doing that? What would that look like? And literally, it came about on a New Year's Eve because you know, everybody that I knew still wanted to go out and have a drink or do you so I'm at home alone and I'm just looking at the ceiling, and I'm like, you know what? What if I could take my brain and pretend it was a machine and like pull something out and I don't like this? How do I stop doing that? And then work on that one thing and then like get rid of it, and then come back and get rid of another thing until I like rewired my whole brain into something entirely new, without taking away my core personality and like who I am. And so that's that's the genesis. So I sat down almost meaningly and I like I basically drew it out. I'm like, okay, I would reflect on myself, and then I would like observe how that activity presented the world, and then what behaviors are it made of, and then I would take those and say, well, if I adjusted this behavior and this behavior, then I would be able to do something different. Okay, what does that look like? So then you I put myself in the real world, I'd test this new behavior, and if it worked, awesome. And if it didn't, well, I'd have to go back to the drawing board. And so what I just described there are the observe behavior and execute step, the OBE of sober. And so once everything's okay, then I would move into the restore step, and that became the whole make amends type of situation where I was like, where have I ever wronged you know, someone by this behavior that I just corrected? And I would then list those people out, and then I would go seek them out. I'd seek out forgiveness. The big thing that I always say to everybody is remember, forgiveness does not mean you're gonna be buddies with this person. Forgiveness is, hey, you know what? I was really horrible to you. I hope you can forgive me for that. All right, good. See you around. That's forgiveness. Uh, and that's a hard thing. Uh some people think that you need to rekindle a relationship. The most important thing to remember is that people are in your past for a reason, and not to dip back into social media again, but I'm gonna give it a big, big knock here. Until the last about 15 years, well, 20 years, I guess, but let's say 15 years, you literally would shed people out of your life and you would never see them again. And there was a reason for that. I mean, as there was a fundamental psychological and fundamentally probably deeper reason I I that I can't exactly put my finger on at the moment, that that that humans were designed this way. Okay, so and look at your life as an evolutionary process. And as you learn things and as you get better, then you seek out new, greater experiences or new and greater people and leave those people behind. Now, some people carry on with you, family generally does, but even then, that's not necessarily a guarantee. True. And but in today's world, there are several people I know that are talking to people they knew in kindergarten or first grade or you know, childhood friends. I can tell you honestly, I have limited to no contact with anyone from my pre sober days. They're just gone. And and even before that, they were they were not really it because you need to evolve. And so this is a very important component of this forgiveness step. Don't friend them on Facebook and start talking to them all the time again. Get the forgiveness and move on. And so then the whole point of silver is you go back to the top, look for something else to work on that you're doing, correct it, and then move forward. I'm on my 166th cycle of my own process right now.

SPEAKER_02: 22:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 22:27

I mean, I'm just thinking like uh what stands out is like how that structured it human approach was that. I mean, uh that approach is because especially the emphasis on execution and the restoration also. So uh amazing.

SPEAKER_01: 22:42

The other thing I would want to say there, because I talked about it on the way in uh earlier, was measurement. Yep. And and a big component of this is journaling what is going on through that observation, behavior, and execution step, like what's happening. And and and writing that down hand to paper is what I always recommend. As much as people like to do the you know, voice notes on hold their iPhone up and talk, it's not the same. There's a there's something very deep about handwriting, you know, it really connects your brain to it. There's a physiological reason that this is very important to try to do it by hand if you can, but it also provides you that reflection and to look back. And you can say, well, I only messed up five times in the last 10 days on this particular thing. If you don't journal, you have no measurement to look at. And that's one thing that's missing with other methods and programs to try to find sobriety is that there's not a lot of measurement to actually go back and look at and say, Oh, yeah, I was doing this. Yeah. And recently I pulled down one of my notebooks from 10 years ago, because as I mentioned, coming up on 10 years, I was like, I wonder what it was like 10 years ago. And read through some of those things. Man, I was holding on by a thread.

SPEAKER_00: 24:06

Amazing. And obviously, I mean, your story includes that uh I'd say profound loss, including the death of someone who obviously played a role in your sobriety. So, how did you continue uh choosing sobriety when pain could have easily pulled you back?

SPEAKER_01: 24:25

Yeah, yeah, Samantha was a huge part of this, and I won't go deep into that story, but I will say that uh those who want to know can definitely find my story on my website. But Samantha was sober and helped me find my sobriety, and she was my strength and my rock. Then she was murdered by a drunk driver in 2020, which brought there's some dark irony in there that I, you know, it's hard to not even see it because it's so obvious. True. And in that moment, when I found out, I know that everyone around me thought I was just gonna start drinking. But I immediately thought, you know what? I have to do something to really honor her. I, you know, the worst thing I could possibly have done in that moment would have been to destroy what she gave me because it was the greatest gift ever. My sobriety had become such this great gift. So instead, I decided I'd honor her legacy by taking sober method beyond the little confines of my close AA type of group that I was talking about it in, and publish a book and actually get out here and try to show others and help others the way she had helped me. I think that people that go through some great loss should really try to reflect on the positive and the good thing that that person brought to your life. True. And those are the things that you carry from them. That's their leg you legacy, you know. And so how can you show that legacy to the world? I think that's a good way to look at it because then your sorrow and your pain turn into like grit and might to get out there and show the world what this person gave you.

SPEAKER_00: 26:28

So obviously, the choice to honor sobriety, even though grief speaks to the depth of inner work that you have done. So definitely, definitely. Thank you so much for sharing that. And for the listeners, I'd like to mention that who who are who are struggling right now. I want to ask this gently like if your addiction had a message, then what part of you might it be trying to protect or I'd say numb? Do let us know what you think. We'd definitely love to know your perspective and what because that will also be kind of learning for others as well. And while they also share, um uh Masimo, like if you can also share about you as well, so that will also be a great help.

SPEAKER_01: 27:16

Yeah, that's uh that's a profound question. So my struggle is with abandonment, fear of abandonment. I have I work with this and and against it to this day. So I have an an incredibly overriding belief that I'm worthless and that the second someone knows who I am, they're gonna leave. I fight that every day. Which might be amazing the way that I present myself to the world.

SPEAKER_00: 27:53

Exactly. And no comments on this.

SPEAKER_01: 28:00

But I can tell you that each day that has diminished. Now it used to be like all gripping, all you know, like I had to drink just to be able to do the and I was a very successful, have been, I've been so blessed in my life. I was a very successful business owner. I, you know, financially very well off. I I had accomplished and achieved things that most people never do in their life. So that's all the stuff I accomplished while I was a drunk. And I did that with that fear of abandonment gripping me all the time. Now, by all measures, I'm better in all those things that I used to be great at now than I was before, but I'm now sober. And that fear of abandonment, that fear of being worthless or the thought that I am diminishes greatly. It almost to unmeasurable most of the time. And I now can tell you that there are very few times where I feel like I'm not the most confident person in a room. I mean, truly feel that, and I no longer worry what people think about me. And so that is where I've gone. Now it's there, I'm not gonna lie. It it creeps in sometimes, and there's self-doubt and everything. But generally speaking, I don't think about those things anymore.

SPEAKER_00: 29:35

Correct, definitely, and definitely. So before we move, I'd love to share this a bit of kind of concise. Like, dear listeners, like soberity lasts when it's built on confidence, self-awareness, and the daily structure. It's not just e resistance. So, with this, Masimo, like for the listeners who uh want to learn more about sober method, your book, and your work in the recovery, where can they find you?

SPEAKER_01: 30:05

Absolutely. You can go to sobermethod.com. I'm on all socials at sober method. I've got a great community at Reddit, uh Sober Method. Go find that sub, Reddit. I answer everybody that reaches out. So, I mean, that's me personally responding. And hey, I'm here for everybody. I really am. I want everyone to find their confident, sober self. It exists within, and it doesn't matter what you're leaning into, whether it's a device or a beverage. True. If you've got a challenge, then let's work on it together.

SPEAKER_00: 30:42

Exactly. Exactly true. Lovely. So, dear listeners, what I'll do is I'll put all the links and the details into the show notes for your easier friends. And thank you once again for joining on My Meets Machine. And dear listeners, if today's conversation resonated, please remember this that recovery is not just about the perfection, it's all about choosing yourself. Structured honest step at a time. So help is definitely allowed, confidence can be rebuilt, and change is definitely definitely possible. So with this hope until next time, stay present and stay intentional.

unknown: 31:18

So